#free jon snow from sansa stans | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

ethereal-elegance · 6 months ago

Photo

@treehillraven23-blog

How delusional,dumb,and ignorant do you have to be believe this bs as a cop out to dismiss and downplay Daenerys' lack of privilege and family for most of her life,ntm victim blame her because your callous ass lacks empathy for the character☠️Daenerys literally lost everything (most of her family,her home,and what her family had that would've been hers) before she was even born as her mother died shortly after giving her (like Jon's mother,Lyanna),literally started life with nothing (all she would've had if Rhaegar didn't die,if Elia,Rhaenys,and Aegon,literally had nothing even begin with but her name and blood.So congratulations on implying you agree with these facts🤡🙃

And just because she never had the opportunity to know Rhaegar, the privilege to know all her siblings, since that was one of many she was robbed of even birth,it still count as loss especially when it's important full blood related members of the family such as her mother,Rhaella,who suffered all her life being abused by Mad King Aerys even before their father forced the sister and brother to marry for the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy.Viserys was almost just as cruel and abusive to Dany as Aerys was to Rhaella throughout their lives as just a brother,then her husband and king.I bet you would be agreeing with me if it was about Jon regarding Lyanna because it's always double standards with antis,since y'all are so full of shit.

Jon stans (but can't expect you to know since all nonas crackshippers are glorified self-insert sardine stans who projecting to fantasize about fucking Kit Harrington😂) of all people should know damn well how deep the void of a mother is (as Jon has serious mother issues thanks to being mistreated and looked down on due to his bastardy and Catelyn's abuse towards him as supposedly the product of Ned's infidelity),because Lyanna is more important to the narrative for some of the main characters,Jon and Arya,like Rhaegar is to Dany while Rhaella is not thanks to GRRM's intention with his writing in the books.Not to mention Dany looks up to Rhaegar and longs to know him even in death,which is why she's eager to learn about Rhaegar.So your reasoning is invalid regardless,and your first part about Viserys is downright blatant nonsensical lies🤦🏾‍♀️🤨

Daenerys did not "hElP" Khal Drogo to kill Viserys🙄There was literally nothing Dany could do to protect and save Viserys even though she told the Dothraki who witnessed Viserys assault her not to harm Viserys,and even tried to warn him against his misbehavior by giving him a taste for what's was to come if you continued,hence why Viserys was forced to walk on foot instead of riding on horseback as punishment for assaulting Dany.Not to mention GoT never shows Dany actually loved Viserys,still loves him,even misses him (since she remembers how well he treated her back then when he still loved her),but she would and could no longer help him (as she lacked agency and power even as Khal Drogo's wife as a girl who is actually just his child bride sex slave) after warning him about how his violent disrespect to the Dothraki and herself pregnant with Khal Drogo's son as his wife since Viserys forced her to marry the much bigger,much older,much scarier Khal Drogo so young as she was literally just a girl,just a child.

Let's just conveniently ignore book canon of how Viserys changed when he had sell the only thing left of their mother,Rhaella's crown,for food to survive as Dany was severely sick from starvation.Viserys snapped in that moment because he was very close to Rhaella,so he began being cruel,too harsh,verbally,emotionally,and physically abusive to Dany and had been terrorizing her ever since.Viserys would literally beat when "she woke the dragon",and it's obvious when he was even terrorizing her in her dragon dream in the books with the bruises on her naked body and her apparent fear,which is why the dream is symbolic of Dany being scared to wake her dragon.Dany's fear and her body language like she's trying to hide or escape from Viserys is also proof of this besides the memory pre-aSoIaF in one of her chapters Viserys beat Dany so hard all just because Dany spilled,clocked Viserys,and called out his double standards towards her concerning how she should've been born earlier.

As if it's somehow Dany's fault the Targaryens "fell from grace" due to Robert's Rebellion when she wasn't even born yet and just a baby when the Targaryen dynasty ended😭Viserys really had the audacity to shift the blame from the adults onto Dany and actually said if she would've been born earlier,Rhaegar would've had a much better option to marry instead,so Rhaegar would've have been so weak to be so enamored and lovesick with Lyanna he practically threw everything away to elope with her.That memory is manifested into a dragon dream as likely a trauma response similar to nightmares and PTSD of abuse victims.Since Dany was scared of him for years (which is a common response of abuse victims towards their abuser) as she reveals in her POV chapters Viserys hurt her,it can be inferred Viserys actually acted upon his threat towards Dany and the events of that dragon dream really happened before.

Let's just conveniently ignore Viserys consistently insulting and offending the Dothraki with his superiority complex,lashing out at a pregnant Dany and being violent towards her,provoking Khal Drogo by threatening to harm his wife and unborn child.Khal Drogo was literally protecting her from Viserys who posed a threat as he'd shown them all what he was capable with all his unprovoked,unwarranted hostility towards his own full blood related sister,his only family left.Not to mention in the books,Viserys planned to rape Dany before she married Khal Drogo and tried to enter her room at night,but Illyrio foresaw this and had guards stationed outside her door.Viserys felt entitled to Dany's maidenhead (virginity) which he perceived to be belong to him due to his Valyrian blood purity and supremacy and perceiving her as his property,because he believed Dany was supposed to be his bride and give him heirs as his only sister and other full blood Targaryen besides himself.

Oh the irony of Viserys' possessiveness of Dany when he sold his own sister,his only family to Khal Drogo in exchange for an army to take back his birthright,the Iron Throne.Tell me without telling me you never really read the books or even watched the show,most likely skipped Dany's chapters and scenes as antis tend to do,because y'all lack basic reading comprehension skills and are just too threatened by a character as iconic,compelling,great,and complex as Dany🤡

Even in the context of GoT,Viserys was still a cruel,abusive brother to Dany.Literally molested her,literally said he'd let all the Khal Drogo's men and their horses fuck her if that's what it would take to reclaim the Iron Throne,calls her degrading and derogatory slurs rooted in his racism and Valyrian blood supremacy such "Dothraki whore,Horse's slut" despite forcing her to marry the Khal for his own ends for the crown;Not to mention let's just conveniently forget Viserys really threatened to cut out Dany's unborn child when she was pregnant.After everything Viserys did to his own sister,even planned and tried to do to her,Viserys reaped what he sowed and honestly deserved what he got although I do have sympathy and pity for him considering how much his life changed for the worse due to Rhaegar's death and Robert Baratheon usurping.

But Viserys was wrong in punishing Dany for Rhaella's death,blaming and never forgiving her for Rhaella dying from childbirth.It's not her fault as she was literally just a baby fresh out of the womb.So it's valid and true Daenerys lost two brothers including her mother who GRRM rarely mentioned compared to Rhaegar and Aerys + GoT never even cared about to acknowledge Rhaella's existence considering it didn't suit their skewed narrative (but GRRM only used as a writing device often in fiction for characterization and character development to motivate Dany to become a true monarch who prioritizes her duty to the people over the self and devotes her life to protect and care for her people like a mother as the Mhysa/Mother of Dragons,the mother she never while being in the process of fulfilling the void of 'family','home',and "the childhood she had never known" by giving her people that symbolized by protection,security,and safety,because she can't bring back the dead or go back in time to save her family, and she can't even obtain the house with the red door,the lemon tree,and "the childhood she had never known" ) and great-great grand uncle Maester Aemon,who the GRRM didn't even have her meet unlike the likes of Jon who grew up with a father and siblings in a castle.

They’re both gone now.

3K notes · View notes

jackoshadows · 18 days ago

Text

Thinking more about this post made me come to a realization about what I will call the Jonsa conundrum.

I have come across this point frequently that anyone writing about or enjoying Sansa's canon relationships in the books does so because they need Sansa to be humbled or hate the character of Sansa herself.

Which is a really weird thing to say considering that people engage in fandom shipping because they really enjoy or love the character and are exploring these characters in fictional relationship tropes they enjoy. From what I have seen it's hardcore Sansa fans who are shipping SanSan.

It's also interesting because the person who has written all these relationships - positive or negative - with Tyrion and Sandor in the books is GRRM. So are these stans implying that GRRM himself hates the character of Sansa and wrote 5 books focusing on these relationships because he needs Sansa to be humbled?

And then there are posts like these:

If Sansa stans are shipping Jon and Sansa because all her other ships are abusive and she is being taken advantage of then why not Sansa and Sam? Why is that not a popular ship? There's as much basis, even more, for Sam and Sansa as a ship in the books than Jon and Sansa.

At the end of the day both are crackships, so if one has to go for a 'wholesome shipping experience' then why not Sam whose canon character does not even have to be twisted and mangled and changed to suit Sansa's sensibilities.

Sam is a genuinely sweet and nice guy who dislikes violence and actually respects and likes girls similar to Sansa unlike Jon Snow and they could even bond over their love for songs and music. Sam and Sansa have more in common than Jon and Sansa. And for folks complaining about incest, Sam and Sansa is incest free!

Even GRRM wants to know why there are not more folks shipping Sansa and Sam whom he describes as kind, smart, decent and devoted. Everything Sansa wants in a partner!

Here is the author himself going - 'Sandor is not a nice guy, why not ship Sansa with someone nice like Samwell Tarly!' - basically the answer to folks complaining about Sansa's canon ships being abusive and who want a wholesome ship for Sansa.

Like it or hate it, Sandor/Sansa or SanSan is an actual canonical relationship! The author has acknowledged it as such, he has outright stated that he has 'played with it' and even has SanSan fanart hanging on his house walls!

Similarly Sansa is married to Tyrion! That is a canon relationship. By the end of ASoS and in AFfC Sansa starts thinking more kindly of Tyrion and even considers him an option of where she can flee to if only he was still alive.

Littlefinger is clearly attracted to this younger Catelyn clone and is grooming her for his own evil purposes. So it makes sense that there are some fans who are into this sort of trope who are playing around with this ship as well.

Then there is Harry the Heir whom Sansa is plotting to marry and is openly flirting with in TWoW. That's another written relationship for Sansa in the books, so I can see why folks would ship that as well.

Then there's Sansa dreaming of or hoping to marry the Tyrell boys, Loras and Willas. Again, makes sense for shippers to play around with those ships.

So when folks ship SanSan or Sanrion or Sansa/Baelish or Sansa/Willas they are only going by the relationships - positive or negative - that Sansa has in the books and that the author has written for the character in the books. This is not Sansa hate.

There is no such relationship in the books between Jon Snow and Sansa Stark. This is why most sensible book readers treat it as the crackship it is. Even Sansa/Margaery and Jon/Sam make more sense as ships than Jon/Sansa because those characters have relationships with more emotional weight and actual page time devoted to it than Jon and Sansa.

Which brings me to the Jonsa conundrum. An oft repeated justification for Jonsa is that it's the only ship where "Sansa is not getting abused or taken advantage in any way". And therefore anyone who opposes this ship does so only because they hate Sansa. (Jon Snow and the character's likes, desires and wants are not even a consideration in this argument)

One main reason for why Jonsa is the only ship where Sansa is not getting abused or taken advantage of is because it exists only in fanfiction written by Sansa stans who center all their stories, headcanon and fanon around Sansa.

Jon and Sansa have nil on page interaction and rarely think of each other. Naturally there is not going to be any abuse! Stans insert whatever headcanons they want into their 'metas' and present it as canon, while straight up creating the dynamic between these two characters as some kind of Disney fairy tale relationship.

They hyper-inflate the one time Jon and Sansa mention each other while ignoring the many times Jon and his other siblings think of each other. They take away from Jon's other siblings and then pretend like they don't understand why fans of other characters don't like this ship.

They frame Sansa's classist prejudice against Jon Snow as being adorable and cute and praise Sansa for following the rules and being honest in treating a bastard like a bastard.

They twist and deliberately misrepresent Jon's reason for refusing Stannis' offer of Winterfell as being about Sansa. They downplay Jon's canon relationship with Arya by making even that to be all about Sansa.

Secondly and more importantly, why is it that they see Jon Snow as the only character who would not abuse or take advantage of Sansa?

What is different about Jon Snow compared to the male characters who fall for Sansa or who Sansa falls in love with canonically?

What is different between Jon Snow Vs Waymar Royce, Joffrey Baratheon, Sandor Clegane, Tyrion Lannister, Littlefinger, Loras Tyrell, Willas Tyrell, Harry the Heir etc.

Jon Snow is refreshing and unique in the world of Westeros because he often goes against the grain and admires girls who defy Westerosi patriarchal ideals and proactively do their own thing, make their own decisions and are in charge of their own destiny. He is a rule breaker and admires fellow rule breakers, something that is consistent over 5 books, from his bond with Arya to his arc with the Freefolk and now as Lord Commander bringing reform and change to the Night's Watch.

Jon Snow himself uses violence as a tool to achieve his goals. He has killed people, has executed people. He would be a hypocrite if he looked down on women who did the same.

Jon loves the 'violent' girlies. He admires the little freefolk girls wanting to be spearvives. He arms an entire fortress with spearwives (Hardin's tower) and puts one of them - Morna White Mask- in charge of a castle called Queensgate. That's right, Jon Snow put a female warrior in charge of Queensgate - so named after a Targaryen queen Alysanne.

He helps Sam and Satin because they are attacked for being gender non conforming. He supports Giant rights by standing up for and building a relationship with Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun.

Jon loves the pro-active girlies. He admires Alys Karstark for getting herself away from her enemies, riding through the harshest of Winters and getting to the Wall. He compares her to Arya and calls her brave.

Being othered himself, Jon can understand and empathize with Arya who gets a lot of flack from Sansa, her mother and the Septa for non conforming to Westerosi patriarchal ideals. This right here is the major difference between Jon and Sansa. Jon is against oppressive patriarchal ideals while Sansa actively upholds them despite being a victim of that very patriarchy.

There is less probability for a character who actively works against ingrained patriarchal rules and regulations of Westeros to abuse women. They are not going to see women as lesser beings, they are not here for forced marriage, they are not going to take out their trauma on the less advantaged of society. We see this in Jon planning on sending Arya to Braavos to avoid her being used as a pawn in the game of thrones. Or telling Selyse and Stannis that Val is free to choose her husband.

Ned/Cat is held up as the ideal relationship when even there Ned literally frightens Cat into not asking anymore questions about Jon and the specter of marital misery meant Cat ended up emotionally abusing a child instead of blaming the man responsible.

Where, even Ned failed to understand his sister Lyanna or daughter Arya and the only ending he wanted/wants for them is get married for a political alliance and have babies. Lyanna couldn't even confide in Ned because he never understood where she was coming from.

And that's the difference between Jon and like 90% of the male characters in the series. Because anyone blindly adhering to Westerosi patriarchal ideals and prejudices would be more prone to putting women into specific boxes and stepping out of those boundaries can lead to abuse.

However the problem for Jonsa shippers is that this book Jon Snow would also fall for the breaker of chains Daenerys Targaryen, another rule breaker and reformist. A true, wholesome, age appropriate, like minded power couple.

This is a problem for Jonsa shippers because they want a character who is out there befriending and supporting the underdogs, the dregs of society and who shows open contempt and disdain for Westerosi bigotry to fall in love with one of the most pro status quo characters, a poster child for Westerosi patriarchy.

This is a condundrum. How to deal with it? By mutilating and mangling the character of Jon Snow into an unrecognizable OC and making up all sorts of fanon that is repeated so often that most non book readers probably think this is true in the books.

Like the fanon about how Jon Snow hates violence and women who engage in violence. Or how Jon 'keeps dreaming of life in Winterfell with a traditional lady love' when in the books he just once imagines this with Val. Or how for Jon Snow his version of an ideal women is Sansa. Or how beauty is the most important factor in whom Jon Snow falls for.

And then of course, Jon's personality and actions make him attractive and he's got a direwolf and sword and possible chosen one hints in the narrative. And he is a main POV character that would prop up Sansa as the Song of Ice and Fire and the main character the series revolves around. And he's got a sword and can enact violence on other female characters like Daenerys.

Because as much as they pretend to espouse pacifism, these shippers want only Sansa to keep her hands clean while Jon and Arya kill all her enemies for her including inflicting violent abuse on other female characters.

Because if they actually espoused pacifism and just wanted a nice guy who hates violence and wouldn't abuse or take advantage of Sansa, there is always Samwell Tarly as I mentioned above.

Honestly, one of the worst aspects of Jonsa is that one of the rare, few male characters who stands out as being against the patriarchy in the books is then shoved into the same box as the 99% of the other male characters in the series.

If one wants Sansa to end up with someone who loves the traditional girlies there are plenty of other characters in the series. Hell, there are actual parallels between Sansa and Theon Greyjoy and yet for obvious reasons Sansa stans would rather make up these fake parallels between Jon and Sansa instead.

They want Jon for Sansa because he is hot and respects women. However they have to then change Jon's entire personality to have him fall for Sansa. In which he is no different to any other male character who follow ingrained Westerosi ideals, and in which case he would be just as prone to abuse just like the other male characters.

Jonsa stans seem not to understand that what makes Jon Snow more open to women's rights is his being against the traditional rules and status quo of Westeros, having been at the receiving end of those rules himself. And Sansa Stark, as written in the books, is the very opposite of that. She hates if girls don't wear dresses, she gives importance to class and titles, she thinks everyone should behave according to their place in society as outlined by outdated dogma, The very dogma, that Jon Snow is tearing down in his attempts to reform the Wall.

And that's the Jonsa conundrum.

#Jon Snow #Sansa Stark #Shipping discourse #anti Jonsa

47 notes · View notes

kellyvela · 2 years ago

Text

Someone is still mad about this post:

What happens with certain shippers (Jon/aunty & Jon/fave sister) and Justin Sweet's asoiaf artworks???

First they claimed that Justin Sweet's renditions of Joshua York & Jon Snow hanging next to each other in GRRM's home office confirms that Jon/aunty are true everlasting love; and now, apparently, Justin Sweet's renditions of "black haired" Stark women in the 2024 Asoiaf Calendar confirms that The Rose of Winterfell has nothing to do with Sansa Stark and her mother Catelyn. All because they are still mad that the The Rose of Winterfell is depicted as a redhead, very similar to Sansa and Catelyn in the A Clash of Kings Graphic Novel.

Fave sister stans now sound like cujo stans with the "l would like to remind you that these drawings were selected by GRRM." They all like too much to make up narratives to support their ships . . . .

Meanwhile GRRM & the artists involved in Asoiaf artwork:

"I have absolutely no control over the covers of my books"

[Source]

~~~

"That's cover art, not an actual Targaryen banner"

[Source]

~~~

"I’m perfectly willing to let the artist do different interpretations"

Q: You have a very distinct idea of what the characters look like in your own head, because readers will always take their own? GRRM: I do have ideas of what the characters look like in my own head but I’m perfectly willing to let the artist do different interpretations… You know, let different artists present their different interpretations of it, I’m fine with that. It’s not photography, so I love the idea of, you know, letting people use their own creativity within limits of course, but I love some of the works, many of the works I’ve bought original is hanging on, you know, on my own walls so… —In conversation: George R. R. Martin with John Hodgman FULL EVENT

~~~

"It's a suggestion-consultation process but by no means is it any type of approval"

—An Exclusive Interview with George R.R. Martin - A Game of Thrones Deluxe Limited Edition - Role-Playing Game and Resource Book [Source]

~~~

"For the most part, Gianni was free to render characters and scenes as he wished."

—Art of Gary Gianni for George R. R. Martin’s Seven Kingdoms [Source]

~~~

"The creative team behind it showed remarkable trust and creative freedom with me"

I’m hugely grateful for the opportunity. The creative team behind it showed remarkable trust and creative freedom with me, something that’s rarer than I’d like to admit in this industry. It’s been a huge level up amongst a year of extreme personal stresses. —Sam Hogg, 2021 ASoIF Calendar illustrator [Source]

~~~

So much for "l would like to remind you that these drawings were selected by GRRM"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You can reed more about Asoiaf Artworks and Creative Freedom here:

~~~

And now you may argue that if the Book Covers, Book Illustrations and Calendar Illustrations are not canon, then the illustrations in the Graphic Novels are not canon either. Well, I covered that subject in this post:

Thanks for reading :)

UPDATE:

GRRM talking about Graphic Novels illustrations:

"I just carefully reviewed all the dialogues and drawings to make sure that no mistake or inaccuracy crept in anywhere."

A series of comics based on your story "The Hedge Knight" has recently been released. Are you satisfied with its implementation? Are there any plans to make comics based on your other works? The proposal to create a comic book based on The Hedge Knight did not come from me, but from the publisher. I was contacted, showed some preliminary sketches, which didn't impress me. But the guys were persistent and did not give up: they continued to search for a suitable artist until they settled on Michael S. Miller. In the end, he did his job just perfectly. Michael was very cool, in my opinion, was able to convey the inner essence of the characters through their appearance - that's exactly how I imagined them when I wrote the story. My participation in the project was minimal: I just carefully reviewed all the dialogues and drawings to make sure that no mistake or inaccuracy crept in anywhere. Now we are discussing the creation of a sequel based on the second part of the adventures of Dunk, published in the collection "Legends 2". It will most likely be made in the same six-comic series format as Knight of the Hedge. We also discussed the possibility of creating comics based on the Canto novels themselves. But given the size of my books, this would require a really massive series. I'm not sure that we are ready for such a grandiose project. —Mir Fantastiki - 2006 - Google translation from the source in Russian:

~~~

Told you!

#asoiaf #asoiaf graphic novels #asoiaf calendars #asoiaf artworks #grrm #the rose of winterfell

41 notes · View notes

agentrouka-blog · 2 years ago

Note

The biggest mystery is where those stans got the idea jon died for aria

They certainly want him to have died for her, so they just brush all the pesky other reasons for the conspirators' opportunistic attack under the rug.

I mean, it would be absolutely valid and poetic if Jon had died for his beloved little sister. Brandon certainly rushed head-first into death after Lyanna was abducted. Sansa correctly predicts that Joffrey abusing Margaery would have led Loras into kingslaying and triggering a civil war. It would have precedent and it would underscore the strength of their sibling bond.

It's just that the assassination attempt GRRM depicted is set up to be mostly centered around the sum of Jon's political choices throughout the book, first and foremost his marked support of Stannis, and prioritizing the survival of the free folk in spite of an impending food crisis. For the conspirators, the revelation that he may have sent Mance to Winterfell to liberate his presumed sister is likely taking a backseat to the fact that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch just placed himself ahead of a force of wildlings to ride down and attack the current Lord of Winterfell.

“The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …” Jon paused. “… is there any man here who will come stand with me?” The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard. (ADWD, Jon XIII)

Those names came up just a little bit earlier in the same chapter, and Bowen Marsh made is opinion known:

"None," Bowen Marsh had said. "I know all these men by their deeds. We should be fitting them for nooses, not giving them our castles."

Jon died for the free folk, or perhaps you could say he died for the lack of properly communicating his long-term strategy. He deeply loves Arya and he certainly hoped that ending Ramsay would end the danger to her, but the idea that he died for her is factually incorrect and also unnecessary to the importance of their sibling relationship.

#jon snow

37 notes · View notes

ethereal-elegance · 9 months ago

Text

*LMFAO ROTF CTFU Sounds like typical jonas crackshipper peak delusion and peak clownery and peak in denial coping because it is🤣

Don’t care about the Snow series, just glad Kit and Sophie hate J/nsa to the point that it’ll never happen.

#anti jonsas #anti jonsa stans #anti sansa stark stans #anti sansa stans #anti stansas #fandom foolery #fandom fuckery #fandom clownery #fandom delusion #fandumb #smh🤦🏾‍♀️#smh 🙄#🤦🏾‍♀️#ugh 🙄🙄🙄#🤡🤡🤡#free jon snow from jonsa #free jon snow #kit harrington spilled #kat harrington clocked it

118 notes · View notes

rissa-rey · 6 years ago

Text

Y’all...

Apparently, I’m going to be respected 98% less for saying this but y’all need to stop attacking the actors.

ALL THE ACTORS.

Yes, that includes the ones that aren’t your fave too!

What the fuck is wrong with y’all?

It’s one thing to disagree with what someone said but it’s entirely another to... You know what, I’m not even going to repeat some of the shit some of y’all have been saying. It’s gross and you’re gross for saying a lot of it. And yes, this is also directed at some of my mutuals (unfortunately). Are y’all for real? Some of the utterly asinine shit y’all are saying is the same bullshit we’ve had to deal with being said directly to and about us for the last two years.

It’s a fucking TV show. Get the fuck over it already.

And please feel free to unfollow me if this post offends you. Some of the bullshit I’ve seen being said about certain actor(s) offends me and if my calling that shit out bothers you then you’re not someone I want following my blog anyway.

124 notes · View notes

thelustybraavosimaid · 2 years ago

Note

"keep writing those pathetic jonrya fics so i can send it to my friends and laugh about how jon would never treat sansa that way😂��" I mean, anon is right. Jon would never treat Sansa the way he treats Arya because he gives zero fucks about her.

I wouldn't say that he gives zero fucks about her, he does think about her sometimes, but anon needs to understand that no one holds a candle to Arya for Jon.

He even compares his lover to her:

Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he'd thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya. (Jon VI, ACoK)

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a "spearwife" when they'd captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore. (Jon II, ASoS)

He looked at his burned hands and instantly thought of his fingers in Arya's hair:

The man called her his heart, he prayed to the gods for her, then he called himself her home:

"The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you."

"I have no sister." The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? (Jon VI, ADwD)

Jon Snow sank to one knee in the snow. Gods of my fathers, protect these men. And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me. (Jon VII, ADwD)

Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl. (Jon XI, ADwD)

The man changed the plan because of her:

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell…I want my bride back…I want my bride back…I want my bride back…

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said. (Jon XIII, ADwD)

The man died for her:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold… (Jon XIII, ADwD)

Those stans never forgave him for that.

They can come back to me once Jon does a fraction of this for Sansa.

13 notes · View notes

ethereal-elegance · 9 months ago

Text

Except canonically there's no love between Jon & sansa,not even platonic because they distant siblings practically estranged with really nothing in common.And even in the context of the terrible adaptation that is GoT,Jon is basically forced to fill in the shoes of Ned & Robb as the head because he's the eldest member of the Starks alive after their deaths,hence why the show compares and parallels Jon to Ned,trying to make him into his clone only to fail miserably by making Jon worse.Yet in GoT,Jon's concern and care for sansa (despite dumb & dumber giving sansa Jeyne's trauma for "character development") is not returned and it's one-sided on sansa's side since sansa shows and proves time and time again she never truly loved Jon or cared about him or desired to protect him or even actually try to as she moving in a way that is the exact opposite with all of her other siblings too.Literally everything sansa has say and done in the show and the books has only really been selfish in service of serving her own interests with no regard for her so called family/dear loved ones.Sansa getting so many of the Northmen killed in the battle of the bastards,especially using Rickon to trick,manipulate,gaslight and guilt-trip Jon to fight in it (which is the begining of sansa's pattern of constantly risking his life and the rest of the Starklings until the very end of the finale of the show,even plotting to kill their own little sister Arya who even the actor of bran and the show writers favored towards the actress of sansa revealed and confirmed the suspicion) to only for her to be the reason their own innocent youngest brother Rickon to die without even showing any guilt, remorse,or mourning him at least just to get credit (like the actress confirmed) for "gEtTiNg BaCk ThE nOrTh WhIcH iS tHeIrS" when many if not most fighting in the battle of bastards against Ramsey Bolton died.Not to mention if sansa was truly "tHe SmArTeSt PeRsOn EvEr" (according to Arya being used as dumb & dumber's spokepiece) and really somehow magically knew about what would happen to King's Landing,then why would she consistently practically constantly provoke the major threat who was apparently volatile and a ticking time bomb?Why would she risk getting kill herself,her family,and everyone in the North killed with her unprovoked hostile behavior immediately upon their initial meeting when their only saving grace has finally arrived to Winterfell to save them from the imminent apocalyptic threat of the white walkers drawing closer to her so called people just because it's the "Mad King's daughter"?Why would she risk getting her precious beloved Winterfell that is their home and the rest of the North obliterated to ashes,acting as if their ally deserved to be judged for the sins of her father before what the d&d forced Dany to burn the people living in the city in the capital of Westeros and the castle her own ancestors built she was working towards her whole life to reclaim,hence destroying the Targaryen legacy?Why would oH sO sMaRtEsT oF aLl sansa & bran the all seeing three eyed raven mentored and trained by powerful Targaryen-Blackwood skinchanger Bloodraven not try anything to prevent the loss of innocent lives especially children in King's Landing if they didn't exactly know what would happened but actually anticipated it instead?It all just goes to show even more that sansa literally didn't care about anyone not even her family but ruling over an independent North struggling to survive that none of the Northerners were prepare to take care of not even the starks let alone the most sheltered pampered spoiled useless ungrateful incompetent dumbass of a brat of them from:

•sansa easily breaking an oath before the old gods of her late father's faith to conspire against the so called devil incarnate with her hand to replace the woman with a man,risking her so called beloved brother life and the rest of their family's lives and the Northerners' lives yet again for the umpteenth time

•sansa begging her little brother bran to give the North independence as a kingdom and begged him to became queen in the North even while bran is king of Westeros,proving sansa only cared about herself getting a crown,not who sat on the throne considering sansa believes ruling is a reward and right and leisure she's entitled to and deserves,not a duty and a job with great responsibility it actually (especially according to Dany's chapters and quotes in the books),(because of her ancestors' genocide of the indigenous native people of the North,the Children of the Forest,her ancestors forced their daughters to marry and mate with for their warging and skinchanging abilities practically to steal it while the First Men also warged war against many houses in the north,wiping out some to become the notorious kings of winter as they kicked out the Blackwoods out of their wolfwoods to take for themselves;("Owning" and ruling land you not only blatantly stole (because it was taken not given or surrendered or even won) but imposed your religion and culture via colonization (unlike the Targaryens who adapted the Westerosi faith of the Seven and assimilated into Westerosi culture instead and didn't enforce theirs on others) upon the rest for thousands of years is not the impressive flex stark stans believe it is using for imaginary drags (as if the Targaryens weren't naturally one of the dragonlord dragonrider noble families of Old Valyria despite being a lesser house who ultimately is the only house to survive because Aenys was likely the only one wise enough to listen to his Daenys the. Dreamer and at least prepare to move his family away because of her dream of the empire's doom if if they didn't know at the time it was a prophetic vision) due to her nonexistent suffering stolen from her childhood friend poor Jeyne🤮

But after all,GRRM did say he created sansa because the Starks all got along too well,which isn't realistic in familial relationships and dynamics,so sansa's is literally the bad egg of the family sowing discord among them.NTM sansa is partially to blame for Ned's death btw especially since her stans love to blame Dany,who's still a child only two years older than sansa,for everything and anything under the sun out of her control when Dany has actually shown/proven she actually cares about other people more than herself and at least,Dany actually tries to help people no matter what even at her own cost and risk since she's truly the most selfless,altruistic,benevolent,kind,noble,honorable,etc.Dany's borderline righteous in spite of her understable flaws (which arent even toxic but relatable and compelling) and her faults (which are literally as a result of Dany actually being way too nice and lenient and for giving),which no one could've anticipated coming miles away and prevented anyway.

I made a post about Jon Snow being a Corn King figure here. So, this post references that one heavily.

The Corn King is a term for a male fertility god/sacred king who dies or is sacrificed for the good of his people to bring fertility or spring back into the land. The Corn King is born at Yule, matures through the year, and dies at harvest, only to be reborn the next year. At Beltane, the Corn King weds an Earth Goddess (an aspect of the Earth Mother). The consummation of their wedding restores fertility to the land.

The king was the incarnation of a dying and reviving god, a solar deity who underwent a mystic marriage to a goddess of the Earth. He died at the harvest and was reincarnated in the spring. Frazer claims that this legend of rebirth is central to almost all of the world’s mythologies. FROM WIKI

I just wanted to make a ship-specific post as we know that Jon and Dany have both been set up as our savior figures to stop the Long Night, restore balance, and bring Spring back again. And, their convergence has been stated has being the point of the series. Does Dany fit the figure of an Earth Goddess, an Earth Mother? The Mother part is easy as Dany is connected to motherhood from the first book and first season onwards. Mhysa means “mother.” She’s the Mother of Dragons.

Frazer, in The Golden Bough, uses Diana, the Roman moon and nature goddess (who has also been called Light Bringer interestingly) and her symbolic marriage to the priest-king Nemi “the two figuring as King and Queen of the Wood in a solemn marriage which was intended to make the earth gay with the blossoms of spring and the fruits of autumn.” Egyptian kings married their sisters and they impersonated Osiris and Isis in the rites of spring.

In Barbara L Talcroft’s The Death of the Corn King which is built on Frazer’s The Golden Bough, she says:

Irish texts speak of the banais rigi or “the wedding of the kingship” which probably meant that the queen, who also impersonated the earth goddess, chose a mate from among her war band and later to become the king-sacrifice. Mac Cana relates the story from Irish literature of King Eochaidh whose kingship was not recognized because his goddess-wife, Edain, had been taken away from him. Mac Cana concludes, “In the context of Irish tradition, the meaning of this is clear. Eochaidh had become king, but his kingship could be validated only by his union with the goddess of sovereignty, in this case, Edain. This union of king and goddess was at one time ritually enacted at the Feast of Tara.”

So, this part is interesting because it’s the Goddess of Sovereignty that gives the king legitimacy. Without her, his kingship is not validated.

The ceremony so essential to the legitimacy of the king took place at his inauguration and had two parts- some form of drink offered by the goddess-bride to the king and the sexual union

Have I just talked myself into accepting Bran’s legitimacy VO while Jon/Dany are having sex? Heh.

The intricate relationship between king and Goddess, at least in the Celtic tradition, was undoubtedly caused by the conflicting emphases of the patriarchal sun religion represented by the king, and of the matriarchal earth and moon religion represented by the Goddess.

Moon symbology has figured in Daenerys’ story. ‘Moon of my life’ which Drogo called her is only one such example. The dragon creation myth is another. There are a lot of moon references in Dany’s chapters. But, there are even more moon references in Jon’s chapters. The Azor Ahai myth and R’hollorism is filled with sun, moon, and star references too. R’hllor specifically is connected to sun and stars.

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi, the Lysene girl said. Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

Melisandre says to Jon in ADWD "You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.“

R’hllor,” sang Melisandre, her arms upraised against the falling snow, “you are the light in our eyes, the fire in our hearts, the heat in our loins. Yours is the sun that warms our days, yours the stars that guard us in the dark of night.”

I was researching the Corn King mythology and I found the references to the Earth/Moon (often used interchangeably) Goddess and the role she plays in the Corn King story. It’s not just his death and rebirth that brings fertility to the land, but it’s the consummation of their marriage. I’m not taking this literally for Jon and Dany, but rather, that their partnership will be what helps saves the world and brings Spring again.

197 notes · View notes

alinaastarkov · 5 years ago

Note

a sansa stan was given an ask about jonrya (and they had the audacity to tag jonx arya in their post despite spreading bullshit) and apparently Jon may have more thoughts about Arya in quantity but they're the same... in quality? also apparently the black bastard cat king in the castle being kissed isn't foreshadowing because he "yowled and spit". also the nods to jon's heart are OBVIOUSLY about sansa because Melisandre, Ygritte.... Sansa? I've lost brain cells since I've read that shit.

He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.

As he rode, Jon peeled off his glove to air his burned fingers. Ugly things. He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya's hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again. He began to flex his hand, opening and closing the fingers. If he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy, it well might be the end of him, he knew. A man needed his sword beyond the Wall.

"That's pretty." He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her.

"He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton's bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she'll fight him. "Your sister," Iron Emmett said, "how old is …" By now she'd be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. "I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you." Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton's throat as easily.

"By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

“The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you." "I have no sister." The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Melisandre seemed amused. "What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?" "Arya." His voice was hoarse. "My half-sister, truly …"

Jon said, "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."

A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage. On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the north. "Young ones, and pretty," Mance had said. The unburnt king supplied some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole's Town. It seemed like madness now. He might have done better to strike down Mance the moment he revealed himself. Jon had a certain grudging admiration for the late King-Beyond-the-Wall, but the man was an oathbreaker and a turncloak. He had even less trust in Melisandre. Yet somehow here he was, pinning his hopes on them. All to save my sister. But the men of the Night's Watch have no sisters.

He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself.

May those deaths be long in coming. Jon Snow sank to one knee in the snow. Gods of my fathers, protect these men. And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me.

"That's good." Jon felt fifteen years old again. Little sister. He rose and donned his cloak.

He wanted to believe it would be Arya. He wanted to see her face again, to smile at her and muss her hair, to tell her she was safe. She won't be safe, though. Winterfell is burned and broken and there are no more safe places.

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. "Let him be scared of me." The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. "Winter's lady." Jon squeezed her hand.

It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her? Arya Underfoot. Her face was always dirty. Would she still have that little sword he'd had Mikken forge for her? Stick them with the pointy end, he'd told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true. Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

Yeah, I mean, I see absolutely no difference in the quality of these thoughts. At all... 😒

#asoiaf #anti jonsa #arya stark #jon snow #sansa stark #also notice he actually names arya as his heart in the paragraph so these people must be fully on crack to miss it #ffs #Anonymous #neve has mail

51 notes · View notes

hellsbellschime · 4 years ago

Note

I have been struggling with Jon's ending since the finale aired. I am a Jon stan but I didn't care about him being KitN and the idea of the IT and the Chimera created by the Targs of the Seven Kingdoms didn't sit right with me. Yet Jon end the series exiled by Bran (and fucking Tyrion who gets what he craves) to the Watch again. Yet this time is not a self imposed one but he is sent as a criminal. A traitor (to the North and Starks, to Dany), an oathbreaker, a queenslayer and kinslayer. The show tries to masks this as some what sweet by having his pal Tormund and the free folk waiting for him. Yet that shot of the gate closing as Jon watches speaks to me as Westeros rejecting him and having no place there (to be continued)

Part 2 and when Jon seeks absolution all he gets is Bran vague statement of 'you were where you were supposed to be'. Jon is an outsider in the Stark family as Ned bastard. Being out of place makes him join the Watch at 14 trying to at least prove he has Ned honor. He dreams of being Lord of WF and a trueborn Stark, not out of spite, not out of power seeking. But because he wants to be someone the Starks can take pride and not the shamefull prove that Ned is like the rest. And this causes in him internal shame and pain because he knows his dream comes at the cost of his brothers and sisters rights. Martin presents him in Bran I as the one who bents Ned in keeping the puts and a seven years Bran understands that Jon is sacrificing his chance of getting a pup, how he places the girls and baby Rickon above him. We know that this sacrifice leads to Ghost. But as Jon goes to the Wall with little in s1, he goes back in the finale with less. The only thing that he can hold on is that Sansa, Arya and Bran and safe. Yet he loses everything in exchange. I'm rafting but what the final of Jon Snow keeps ke awake is "where is A Dream of Spring here"? What's the point of his character journey but to be allways doomed as the stain on the Stark name?

I’m not surprised that you’re struggling with it because it was shit. I think that D&D were aiming for ambiguous but it was really just confusing and empty because it did nothing to address Jon as an individual. It’s not at all bizarre that this happened though, because the moment he met Dany he really ceased to be an individual and the entirety of his character arc was focused on masking the fact that Dany’s dark turn was coming, so his character got no real development and his internal life was nonexistent, and because of the time crunch they forced on themselves it required them to wrap up his entire character arc in half an episode. It was a horrible idea and horrible execution, so having him hand wring over his decision to kill Dany and then being sent to the wall “where he belongs” was the best they could muster in the amount of time that they had.

But for me, I ultimately don’t think Jon’s internal conflict is going to be about killing Dany at all. Once he’s at that point he knows it’s the right thing to do, I think he will be far more conflicted about the part he feels like he played leading up to it and conflicted about whether or not he could have or should have done something earlier. He and Tyrion are making the same mistake in believing that their influence is enough to guide Dany away from dark impulses which obviously isn’t the case, and he’s going to learn that he’s wrong in the most brutal way possible.

I don’t think he’s doomed, but he was sure as hell born under a bad sign, and one of the ultimate bittersweet ironies of his character is that on paper he is nearly everything bad in the eyes of Westeros. He’s a bastard kinslaying queenslaying traitor, except he was right. In a huge sense he’s a foil to Jaime, because Jaime has been awful for his entire life and the only truly heroic thing he had ever done in the first 30 odd years of his life was kill the Mad King, and the entire country derided him and loathed him as a Kingslayer. On the other hand, Jon is someone who has always tried to live up to his ideals and be a truly good and decent person, and the one time where he makes a mistake he essentially becomes Jaime Lannister in the eyes of the world, but instead of his mistake saving King’s Landing it winds up being the reason that it’s destroyed.

I think Jon’s internal conflict will be heavily driven by that, that basically everything that he idealized and wanted to believe in was a false ideal, and the problem isn’t that he never fit into the world, but that the world itself is wrong in so many ways. I think that in the end Jon will likely leave this world behind for quite a while, but I don’t think it will necessarily be forever. I think it’s more a symbolic rejection of the world that he always felt rejected by, and his understanding that people’s desires to take their “rightful place” in the world can be enormously destructive. I also think that one of his great gifts to the world will be not pressing his claim to the Iron Throne and letting all of the insanity that Targaryen rule has brought to Westeros end for good. I think that a big theme for Jon and Arya specifically has been the desire to fit in when they don’t feel like they do, and I think that’s something that GoT swung for and completely missed with the completion of their character arcs. I think that their book endings will be far more in line with that, that instead of feeling rejected they will understand that they can navigate the world in their own way and that’s okay, and they will instead reject the standards that they can’t ever fulfill. The great irony is that after a lifetime of obsessing over the fact that he doesn’t belong, Jon’s origin story both indicates that he DOES belong but that the ruling class of Westeros is fuckin crazy and isn’t really a place where people should want to belong.

In the early years Jon used to be my favorite character but I lost interest in him for exactly this reason, that D&D started using him as the kind of blank slate “chosen one/hidden prince” archetype and didn’t really do jack shit with his character beyond that, and that is undoubtedly why the R+L=J revelation felt so empty. It was meaningless both because it had no impact but because Jon had no reaction to it and quite frankly by the time he found out he was near Bran-levels of non-characterization. It felt like he had no internal characterization left even before he met Dany, but once the two of them came together it was like the show was on a rocket trying to get to the end as quickly as possible with as little explanation as possible. Most of the other characters could get away with their hollow endings because at least some aspect of it rang true, even if I don’t like Sansa’s, Bran’s, Brienne’s or Tyrion’s endings I can still make sense of them, but because Jon’s internal crisis came in literally the last goddamn episode of the series there was no time to fully explain why he was doing what he did or why he felt how he felt, and because it was too complex to explain they basically gave him a vaguely “happy” ending even though it was so shoddy and weird it was hard to even understand what the hell was supposed to be happening. It’s ironic too, GoT really went out of it’s way to make him into the male lead character and then gave him no development or resolution to actually give him a complete character arc.

#jon snow #jon snow meta #anti got #asoiaf #got meta #asoiaf meta #eonweheraldodemanwe

21 notes · View notes

jackoshadows · 10 months ago

Text

Here's the thing though. You keep writing about how Sansa 'felt'. Ex:

But I do understand the readings of Sansa as someone who felt misplaced in Winterfell, regardless of whether or not she actually was.

There is nothing in the text that supports Sansa 'feeling' misplaced in Winterfell and therefore any such readings are either projecting onto the character or creating a headcanon based on what one would like to see in this particular character i.e she was 'feeling misplaced in Winterfell'. To me it feels like the reader projecting what they would feel like seeing Arya making friends with the smallfolk and then assuming that Sansa would feel the same. However, there is nothing in the text itself it to support this assumption.

Regarding your point 1: I agree that Sansa losing Lady is different to Arya's losing Nymeria - especially as we proceed to the later books and the Stark kids connect through their wolf dreams and the direwolves are set to play a big role. However, when we are talking about the girls feeling lonely without their wolves, then Arya is also dearly missing her wolf, a part of herself. Added to that Arya is also dealing with the loss of her friend, Mycah - and then getting teased by Sansa and Jeyne about how Mycah's body was cut up into pieces. Added to that, after Mycah's death, Arya has no companionship in KL unlike Sansa having Jeyne. So who is feeling more alone and isolated in KL? Arya or Sansa?

Regarding your point 2:

But I also don’t strictly think that makes it impossible that some part of the criticism could come from a place of subconscious envy. Of course, when thinking about this, I am analyzing Sansa as if she were a real child with real psychological mechanisms at play. Which doesn’t really work. It’s more like, if she was a real person, this is a possible emotion that might have influenced her behavior.

See, this is what I am talking about in terms of projecting what you think the character should feel and experience, which is completely disconnected from the character the author is writing and what the text is actually telling us. Of course you are free to make up your headcanons, however, don't use that as an argument against actual canonical text.

At no point is Sansa ever envious of Arya making friends with the smallfolk. It's very clear that Sansa sees Arya's intermingling with the smallfolk as a flaw. I am sorry, but you writing about Sansa's 'subconscious envy' is as silly as Jonsa shippers writing about how Jon is subconsciously madly, deeply in love with Sansa and is subconsciously thinking of Sansa every time he talks of Arya or that Sansa is subconsciously basing her Alayne persona on Jon Snow when there is nothing of this sort present in the text and Sansa straight up says that she forgot Jon Snow's very existence until Myranda reminds her of him.

The word 'subconscious' is my supervillain origin story at this point - an easy way for stans to project their own headcanons about feelings, thoughts and emotions onto a character when there is no evidence of such in the canonical text.

In fact if Sansa was indeed subconsciously envious of Arya's ability to make friends with the smallfolk, we should have seen her at the least make an attempt at friendship with Mya Stone in the Vale. She has every opportunity to do so. Instead she forms a friendship with the high born Myranda Royce with whom she gossips about Mya and sees Mya Stone as less than on account of her bastardy and only deserving of an older, low born, 'ugly' suitor like Lothor Brune. This is who Sansa is as a character, this is the character GRRM has given us.

Sansa envied Arya’s disregard for classist and sexist expectations would give more meaning to her later character development as her opinions change on things like bastards.

But her opinions don't change on bastards!! That's the most disappointing aspect of her character - the lack of character growth. She's very static in terms of growth. She has never acknowledged her abysmal treatment of her little sister. She is only aghast at having to play a pretend bastard in the Vale - at no point does she reflect on the unfairness of societal discrimination against bastards. At no point does she think that Mya Stone deserves better - No, she thinks Mya Stone deserves less because she is a bastard. In book 3, after everything she experiences at the hands of the Lannisters she still wishes 'beautiful, graceful' Margaery was her sister rather than Arya. She still thinks in her most recent Vale chapters that Mya would only be pretty in a dress. Amongst all our main POV characters, she is one of the most pro status quo, pro patriarchy characters in the series.

Despite growing up in the North which experiences hard winters with food shortage and despite just overhearing Littlefinger's price gouging scheme, withholding food from a starving populace we get nothing in her POV about any of that while enjoying a sumptuous feast with a huge lemon cake being made especially for her.

I don’t think this is nearly enough to say Ned favored Arya or neglected Sansa or anything like that but given Sansa’s skewed perspective she may have perceived that at the time.

Where is this 'skewed perspective' in the text? Again, the only time we read Sansa saying that Ned was not being fair to her as opposed to Arya is at the very end of AGoT when Ned calls of the betrothal and is planning to send both girls back to Winterfell and allows for Arya to have dancing lessons but refuses to let Sansa say goodbye to Joffrey.

We know this is the only time because Sansa's reaction to this is swift and disastrous. She acts like the spoiled brat she is to this perceived slight from her father by tattling all of his plans to Cersei.

We read in her POV chapter where she tattles to Cersei in how she saw herself as the favored daughter because she was good unlike 'wicked' Arya. And both her parents did nothing to disabuse her of that fact. Which was why she felt 'wicked like Arya' when she went to tattle all of Ned's plans to Cersei.

She preferred sothron culture and wanted to leave Winterfell. Couldn’t those things make her feel out of place, even if she doesn’t directly say it? One could also make the case that Sansa latched onto sothron culture and KL because she felt misplaced but I think the former explanation, idealizing sothron culturing and king’s landing leading to a feeling of being misplaced instead of the other way around, would be more likely.

If she doesn't say it in the text of the books, then that is again your headcanons for what she might have felt isn't it? Again, we have a strong characterization of Sansa as a character who, pre-ACoK, felt that the Southern culture and men/women were superior to Northern culture and she grew up with this notion because of all the ladies surrounding her like her mother, the Septa, her friends, the romantic songs and stories she grew up on, everyone - including her father - wanting her little sister to be like her, observing her little sister getting scolded for not being like Sansa by the adults in her life etc. What about any of this would make Sansa feel left out or displaced?

Again and again, we see from Sansa's POV that in her opinion that it was Arya who was lacking as a person. From the author's own interviews, he has explained how Arya and Jon bonded because they felt like outcasts in Winterfell. Why is Sansa being shoved into this narrative because of suppositions, projections and assumptions of Sansa's - unwritten in the books - subconscious thoughts.

I don’t think it’s “both sides”-ing the matter to read more complexity to what drove Sansa’s treatment of Arya because the motive doesn’t change the

Maybe you are not discussing this with the intention to 'both-sides' but this idea that it was Sansa who was the outsider in Winterfell, that Ned was partial to Arya over Sansa, that Sansa felt alone and isolated and that was why BOTH sisters ARE EQUALLY TO BLAME for their antagonistic relationship is a very popular and oft seen opinion on the tags. When it is all based on made up headcanons and when that is pretty much taking from Arya' narrative themes and characterization to give to Sansa in order to excuse and justify the character's actions.

Time to ramble. I’m thinking about the way Arya and Sansa fans seem to get into this debate about who was more lonely and neglected in Winterfell. Which is kind of funny because then the arguments get totally reversed when debating other aspects of the characters. But anyway. The general arguments seem to be:

1. Arya was clearly the neglected outcast. This is clear in the meta narrative because of her connection to Jon and the fact that she doesn’t look like her true born siblings. The more direct evidence comes from the way Sansa and Jeyne teased her, the harshness of Septa Mordane, and Catelyn’s exasperation. It can be inferred that Arya feels a sense of insecurity wrt to her family ties as she wonders if her own mother would want her back after everything that happened. It can be assumed that she was a bit of an outcast based on her disinterest in the things expected of her as a girl, and we see the way many characters look down upon non-conforming women and girls in-universe. Sansa, on the other hand, receives praise from her mother and the septa and has two named close friends in Winterfell. She happily conforms to what is expected of her as a highborn girl and we can assume she would fit in in Winterfell.

2. Sansa was clearly the neglected outcast. This is clear in the meta narrative because she is the only one to lose her direwolf, which is the family symbol. The more direct evidence comes from contrast with Arya, whom Sansa observes can “make friends with anybody,” seemingly in contrast to herself. Ned agreed to kill Lady despite knowing she was innocent and indulged Arya’s interest in swordplay whilst being unenthusiastic about indulging Sansa’s interest in tourneys. Arya is demonstrated to be beloved by Ned’s men in a way we do not observe with Sansa. We can assume that Sansa didn’t feel like she belonged because of her interest in sothron culture, something none of her siblings share. Arya, on the other hand, is extroverted, makes friends easily, is northern in appearance, and has no interest in sothron culture, so we can assume she fit in in Winterfell.

I actually don’t think a lot of the points in the two arguments is mutually exclusive. We also have to remember POV bias. Arya doesn’t reflect on Any friends her age she had at Winterfell (I am not including Mycah because I am under the impression they became friends on the way to King’s Landing), but Arya is not one to reflect and reminisce. Sansa notices that Arya can make friends with anyone, but she doesn’t experience Arya’s inner world. What does Sansa mean by making friends? Does she see Arya having fun and being at ease talking to anyone and feel envy, since she herself feels like is performing, always minding her manners, when she’s socializing with most people? Could it be that Arya is friendly but struggles to find long term close friends like Jeyne and Beth, attributing this disparity to Sansa’s “ladylike” interests? Could it be that being teased by Sansa and her friends and scolded by Catelyn and Mordane has made Arya assume that other girls wouldn’t be interested in close friendship with her, causing her to be friendly but keep a certain distance? (**please note I am not trying to make a case for nlog Arya. I think keeping a distance because you assume you’ll be rejected is different and does not require that she looks down upon other girls, because there is no evidence for that here**)

I don’t have a good conclusion I just think it’s interesting that this is something that gets debated because the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. We can’t know because we get very few flashbacks and the story picks up when their normal lives in Winterfell end. I can’t speak to George’s intentions but if we pretend they’re real people I’d speculate that both would have felt misplaced within Winterfell at times, envying certain traits about the other

#asoiaf

315 notes · View notes

mysticalmuddle · 4 years ago

Note

Sorry if this has been asked before, but what got into asoiaf? Also, did you like Arya and Jonrya from the first read or did that come later? What do you think of Jon as a character? What are your top 10 favourite characters and moments? I aplologise for this avalanche of questions but I just couldn't help wanting to know more of my favourite asoiaf writer. PS: I adore your aesthetic, your blog and writing gives me an otherworldly feeling.

Hey no worries! Ask away <333

but what got you into asoiaf? I’ve always been into quasi-medieval fantasy, and picked up asoiaf a looooooooong time ago, when I was in middle school. It was so engagingly written that it never really left my brain since? That’s like, ten whole years rent free I’ve been thinking about these characters. What recently spurred me into like, engaging with the fandom/writing/etc was the lack of action in the Jonrya tag, and more specifically, the lack of stories updating that I was interested in, so I decided to make my own 😅

Also, did you like Arya and Jonrya from the first read or did that come later? Re: liking Jon and Arya right off the bat--Okay, so when I first read the series, I was Going Through It IRL, and identified a lot with Jon and his storyline? But I was also so not past the age of “girls going on insane dangerous adventures and being brave despite that” being massively appealing and all the Arya chapters were a satisfyingly more adult version of that genre. I’ll say I liked them both from the get-go, and it’s never really died down since, and I just learned over the years and rereads to appreciate more of the characters. (If I’d been a little older on that first read, I probably would have glommed onto Tyrion instead, and my fandom interactions now would be...vastly different 😂😂😂)

I guess I sort of shipped it from the moment I read ADWD. Like, I was super into Jon&Arya before then--that level of devotion is one of my fictional relationship draws--but ADWD really got me into it. There was just something so compelling about how often they think of each other, and how badly they want to be reunited again, in Arya’s chapters especially. But the whole passage with the Pink Letter just Fucked Me Up emotionally, and suddenly I was like, “They should reunite and kiss”. Over the years, my enthusiasm for the ship has increased, as my very old slushpile of unpublished fics can attest.

What do you think of Jon as a character? I think he’s an incredibly complex character, which is my favorite type of character! His struggles in the series against his own desires versus his sense of duty, especially framed in the narrative by popular thoughts about bastards, and how that affected his self esteem--he has to be more honorable, more clever, more dedicated just to make up for a facet of his own existence that he didn’t control and can’t change!--is something I just find so compelling. And, of course, his deeply intense love for Arya always gets me like 😍😍😍😍 I don’t have any huge takes on him though--I’m not a very thinky type person and everything I think about characters seems so hard to articulate unless I’m pouring it out into a fic (so I’m sorry if you wanted Takes! This Bitch Empty!)

What are your top 10 favourite characters?

Arya

Jon

Daenerys

Brienne

Tyrion

Missandei

Oberyn

Bran

Asha

Sansa

What are your top 10 favourite moments? Alright, these are in no particular order of preference, just listened as I remembered/googled exactly what books they took place in

1. When Brienne rescues Willow from the Bloody mummers, despite knowing that they’ll kill her for the attempt, AFFC-Brienne VII. No chance and no choice gives me chills every fucking time

2. When Arya kills Dareon and walks off with his boots, AFFC-Cat of the Canals. This moment has implications and speaks to Arya’s inability to let go of herself, even when all that being a Stark means in that moment is the gruesome work of justice, but I’ll be honest--I just like it because of how nonchalant and almost sassy she is when taking the boots afterwards, and how it speaks to her practicality.

3. When Jon reads the Pink Letter and loses his shit, ADWD-Jon XIII. I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said. Ohohohohhhoo!!! Juuuuust fuck me up GRRM!!

4. When Daenerys has breakfast with Missandei in Mereen and Missandei chides her into eating more, saying Daenerys is very small, ADWD-Daenerys VII. But also every Daenerys & Missandei interaction ever. Every time they speak to each other, you can just tell the level of care they have, and how they see each other as family over time!!!

5. When Arya travels with the Brotherhood Without Banners and gives water to the northern prisoners before watching as Anguy mercy-kills them, ASoS-Arya V. It’s a facet of Arya’s personality that imo, I think is ignored in metas and fics. She considers them her pack, and despite her disappointment in them, and her disgust at their crimes, still gives them water and finds them a quick, merciful death.

6. The dinner with the men of the Nightswatch and the discussion Bran and Robb have afterwards, about riding to the Wall to see Jon, and about whether their family will come back, AGoT-Bran IV This moment, I think, speaks to Robb’s characterization in a way that Catelyn’s POV chapters don’t touch very well. He’s so very young, despite everything, and trying his hardest, and well aware of the dangers his family is in, and how he’s falling short of saving them and there’s nothing he can do about that.

7. Oberyn during Tyrion’s trail by combat, and his arrogance and his rage, ASoS-Tyrion X. His demand that the Mountain say Elia’s name got me tearing up the first time I read it, not realizing what the cost of that justice would be for Oberyn himself. So much of ASoIaF deals with grief, and the consequences of obsessive grief, and this fit into the series so impeccably fucking well

8. Every single thing about Daenerys freeing the slaves at Astapor, ASoS-Daenerys III. One of the things I really didn’t appreciate in the show is how they changed the tone of that scene, very much altering it from Daenerys and her joy that she can do this thing, a balm after the horror she felt seeing the slaves and learning about the brutal training the Unsullied go through, into a moment that was just her being badass and powerful.

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" "Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire. "Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire."Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire. [Bold mine] The moment on the show was momentous, but this was-----vastly superior and far more indicative of her character.

9. Catelyn stopping the catspaw from killing Bran, AGoT-Catelyn III. Watching Catelyn emerge from the haze of her grief only to go full fucking ham feral and brutal protecting her child was like *chef’s kiss* There’s just such a cool contrast between her losing her shit talking with Robb a moment before, and then the actual fight, and then her busting out with: "The circumstances did not allow me to examine it closely, but I can vouch for its edge," Catelyn replied with a dry smile. "Why do you ask?"

10. This exchange: Alliser Thorne overheard him. "Lord Snow wants to take my place now." He sneered. "I'd have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than you will training this aurochs.""I'll take that wager, Ser Alliser," Jon said. "I'd love to see Ghost juggle." AGoT-Jon III. That’s the moment I knew I stanned Jon Snow irreparably, forever.

PS: I adore your aesthetic, your blog and writing gives me an otherworldly feeling. No u! For real, anon, that’s so fucking sweet of you to say 🥰🥰🥰 Hope I answered everything to your satisfaction, and feel free to come back and chat if the mood strikes ya!

#asks #Anonymous #read more because rip this got long

9 notes · View notes

jackoshadows · 3 years ago

Text

So some thoughts in regards to the person going on reddit to complain, with a disingenuous post full of blatant untruths, to the mostly white male readers of asoiaf about mean tumblr fans who push back against existing narratives, white supremacy, sexism and racism on here.

This is, more or less, an explanation of what I mean by using the term ‘neutral’ for some asoiaf fans. I have read other excellent posts explaining the same and this is mine. I use the term to highlight the hypocrisy and double standards of certain readers who hold different characters to different standards and analyze them differently because of an inherent bias that they claim they don’t have.

I am just writing here about what I have encountered browsing the Jon Snow tag and fandom double standards.

The term ‘neutral’ has nothing to do with not being a Dany fan.

Disclaimer if you don’t want to read any further : I am a Jon stan first and foremost. The reason I even started making Dany posts was because there was just so much Dany hate and misinformation on the Jon Snow tag by Jonsa fans that I would end up responding to it.

And yet I get along well with Dany stans, some of whom even dislike Jon Snow. Because liking our favorite characters is not based on hating other characters or taking away from other characters or their relationships. We freely accept our bias towards certain characters and don’t pretend to love all the female characters because ‘feminism’ or engage in performative activism.

To give an example, I think Jonarya and Jonerys are two plausible ships and yet Dany Vs Arya is not a thing. Dany and Arya are two of the central female characters in the series. Arya has the most POV chapters of all female characters and Dany has the largest word count of all female characters. They have dragons and direwolves. And yet there is no competition, ship wars or hate between their fans.

The only reason there is even drama between Martell ‘fans’ and others is because Sansa fans co-opted the house and certain characters to engage in performative activism and attack other posters for stanning and shipping other characters. Imagine being a white person accusing a POC of having internalized racism because they don’t subscribe to the same headcanons and then thinking that they have the moral highground! It’s farcically ridiculous but that is the state of the asoiaf fandom today.

It’s Sansa fans who seem to be picking fights with everyone. So, to the Sansa fans who whine about other fans being mean to them, to quote Raylan Givens:

'If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.'

Now with regards to what I am talking about when I use the term ‘neutral’. This post is the opinion of a Jon fan since that’s what I have encountered. Dany/Arya and R/L fans have already talked about this here and here.

In essence, I am referring to people who write things like this:

Jon, a privileged (despite his bastard status) teenager, sees rows and rows of food and thinks that these stores seem more than adequate stores to last the winter; having lived much of his life in the longest summer in living memory as the acknowledged son of one of the greatest lords in the kingdom, having never had to manage the requirements of a household (much less the Night’s Watch or its new guests), Jon has absolutely no clue what good and bad looks like in the context of food stores.

and as Jon either declines to explain (because he himself has no explanation) or fights Bowen’s suggestions (insisting on feeding the free folk and Stannis’ people, refusing to put the men on winter rations), Bowen Marsh has yet another reason to see Jon, eventually, as a danger to the Watch who needed to be stopped.

or like this:

which is part of the point I was making; in Bowen’s mind, Jon has created the problem by allowing the free folk to come through the Wall (putting greater pressure on limited stores), and when faced with the consequences of the problem has no solution to offer.

Also:

And the idea that Jon as Jeor’s personal steward was being trained on stores and figures is simply not supported by anything in the text,

Meanwhile in the text of the books:

The black brothers set new recruits to many different tasks, to learn where their skills lay…[F]or every day spent hunting, he gave a dozen to Donal Noye in the armory…Other times he ran messages, stood at guard, mucked out stables, fletched arrows, assisted Maester Aemon with his birds or Bowen Marsh with his counts and inventories. - Jon, AGoT

And then the same person writing things like this on what Sansa will do in the North:

Organizational and diplomatic, I’d guess. Swords and dragons will be necessary to fight and defeat the Others, but they need to get to the front lines first before that fight can happen. Someone will have to convince the various Houses not already committed to the cause that they should be focusing on this supernatural threat - no easy feat, given the thousands of years that have passed since the Long Night - and will have to keep track of the forces and supplies of humanity’s host before the actual fighting begins. Sansa, who has already proven herself as a planner, critical thinker, and politically pretty savvy person, is exactly the sort of individual who could be useful working on behalf of the Starks to rally everyone under the same banner.

What long term planning has Sansa done so far in 5 books? Critical thinking is the analysis of available facts, evidence, observations, and arguments to form a judgment. Except for that one single time where Sansa guesses that Lyn Corbray maybe LF’s man and needed LF to confirm this, where is this demonstration of Sansa being a critical thinker?

She saw Joffrey sadistically brutalize a child and Cersei order her pet wolf killed and still trusted them more than her own father. She knows LF last had Jeyne Poole, knows that LF needs SR to die for his plans to succeed, knows that LF had Lysa poison her husband, knows LF is hoarding food and engaged in a price gouging scheme. Where is her critical thinking for analyzing all this information available to her and coming to any kind of judgement?

Or this:

Sansa’s quick pronouncement of Harry’s high place in the Arryn succession reflects more credit on her than it might appear. Unlike the reader, who has the benefit of perusing the information presented by Littlefinger and rereading where some fact was unclear, Sansa has been tasked with piecing together this conclusion merely by listening to Littlefinger’s tale. She has managed to keep straight the names and ranks of the not-insignificant number of people in the story and identify the most relevant portions for the final conclusion. Her answer demonstrates the development of her character as a new but quickly maturing player, which has been at the heart of her arc in A Feast for Crows: from the “absurd” pride Sansa felt back in “Sansa I”, when she puzzled out the implications of Littlefinger’s gift to Nestor Royce, she now practices this sort of political analysis swiftly and correctly.

Littlefinger explaining the whole plot to Sansa in detail and Sansa catching on is evidence of smart Sansa, politically savvy, genius, critical thinker who excels in organization and diplomacy because she helped plan the feast and tourney with all the vast resources available to her.

Meanwhile Jon Snow who learned same as Robb about food stores from Ned, who knows as does every Northerner the food scarcity in the North, rations food, thinks of getting food from the fertile Vale, thinks of building glass houses to grow food, getting items he can sell for food from the Freefolk, getting a loan from the Iron Bank to buy food = privileged teenager with no clue about food.

This is what I am talking about in terms of fandom double standards where these characters are judged differently using the same standards. Jon has gained an education from Ned, Luwin, Jeor, Aemon, Donal etc and is yet relegated to privileged teenager who has no clue about food stores in book 5. Sansa who learned from Septa Mordane is an organization and diplomatic wonder who will go North and sort everything out.

And this masquerades as ASoIaF analysis that needs to be taken seriously because this person is supposedly reading the text with no bias for their analysis of character story arcs and endgames.

Example 2.

Sansa is also going to change the system from within the system.

In general, though, I think Sansa is going to continue to contrast with Arya (who I think is more likely to work on lasting change by not taking up a role expected of her, and forging her own path instead). Sansa’s the one who’s getting the training to change the system from within the system, to shift it into being better from inside, and for that I think she’s going to take up a pretty conventional leadership role in the end.

Mind boggling analysis coming from an asoiaf non biased expert. I mean, first of all, there is Arya who has been rebelling against the system from the very first line in her POV chapter. However, apparently Arya is going to bring about change by .... not doing anything and going away? Meanwhile it’s Sansa - the one character who does not introspect ever on the current status quo - who is going to bring about change.

However, the same person also thinks that change is hard, the feelings of the bigots matter and that instead of working on reform, Jon should have spend time either dealing with or removing his top qualified steward while facing a labor shortage.

What Jon does have to do is realise that Bowen Marsh and people like him are relevant to what he’s trying to do. For the purposes of the setting, the reactionaries at the Wall are real people, with real feelings, and real power to act. Whether Jon chose to accommodate them, convince them, or confront and neutralise them - doesn’t matter. What he did was dismiss them entirely, to his fatal surprise when Marsh et al actually decided to act on their feelings and opinions.

In my opinion Jon was working on some really farsighted ideas and bringing some much-needed modernisation to the Watch. That was good. But basically he was looking at the forest and tripped over a tree root.

See my response here.

Pretty much most of my Bowen Marsh posts on my blog are arguments with BNFs who think that Marsh had a right to his anger because Jon did not explain things, or was rude and dismissive or ignorant about the situation.

The author himself has expounded at length about how ruling is hard

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

In real life, real-life kings had real-life problems to deal with. Just being a good guy was not the answer. You had to make hard, hard decisions. Sometimes what seemed to be a good decision turned around and bit you in the ass; it was the law of unintended consequences. I’ve tried to get at some of these in my books. My people who are trying to rule don’t have an easy time of it. Just having good intentions doesn’t make you a wise king.

GRRM’s leaders, including Jon, are put into impossible situations with no easy solution. And yet the same people criticizing Jon for not seeing ahead and dealing with Bowen Marsh also write this about SweetRobin and the Sweetsleep

This is a pretty logical and reasonable train of thought from Sansa. Sweetrobin’s doctor has approved some medicine for him to take when he needs to be calmed down -> Sweetrobin needs to be calm to get off the mountain -> now is a good time for Sweetrobin to take some medicine.

Remember, Sansa has exactly zero grounding in science and medicine. The concepts and mechanics of medication are not things she’s come across before. Unlike the reader, who has access to Arya’s PoV to give them the sort of quantities that will be fatal.

Colemon says she doesn’t understand, and then he doesn’t explain what it is she doesn’t understand. I think all evidence points to Sansa not knowing exactly what risks she’s running with Sweetrobin’s health and that she is unaware that Littlefinger is pressuring Colemon into overprescribing sweetsleep, to Sweetrobin’s detriment.

This explanation conveniently leaves out this part of Sansa’s thinking “Maester Coleman cares only for the boy though. Father and I have larger concerns” which indicates that Sansa does indeed understand that SweetSleep is dangerous to the health of a frail, sick boy but that she and LF have to look at the bigger picture, mainly their plotting against the Vale lords. But no, as per this unbiased analysis, Sansa is not to blame because Maester Coleman didn’t explain things to her properly. Or how Arya knows that Cersei is not to be trusted because she has the privilege of not being a lady unlike poor Sansa.

Meanwhile Jon Snow is expected to play 4D chess at the wall and be 4 steps ahead of everyone in order to get to the same level as smart Sansa.

Many folks have already talked about Asoiafuniversity being run by Sansa stans who spend their time reblogging Dany and Arya critical posts because they are neutral and doing proper analysis of flawed characters and yet Sansa somehow apparently lacks any flaws to get the same treatment.

They call Arya fans bad fans and reblog from people like this

about how Jon should really not have hired Satin because change is hard and it’s easier to please the bigots. Toxic Jonsa fans who reblog about how Dany raped her handmaidens is no problem for asoiafuniversity. It’s fans who don’t slobber over how awesome Sansa is that’s the issue.

GRRM has talked about how R+L=J is the central mystery of the book.

We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book...

However according to asoiafuni, R+L=J is about a character who died in the first book and has nothing to do whatsoever with Jon. Just like in the show, ASoIaF expert analysts think it won’t affect Jon in any way other than to hate Rhaegar (Cause that’s important!) and do penance like Dany. Meanwhile it’s also full of nonsense posts like this about Sansa’s connection to the North or speculation on how natural born diplomat Sansa can rule the North . I am searching and searching and am unable to find one post on there critical of Sansa. It’s amazing really. A character with no flaws.

Their double standards with respect to shipping is too vast to write about. It would require an entire other post. Sansan, Jaime/Brienne, Jonsa, Jongritte etc. etc. shippers mocking Rhaegar/Lyanna shippers displays such a lack of self awareness. And not just mocking, but actively bullying R/L shippers.

Bloggers who ship the 11 year old Sansa with the 27 year old hound and then talk about being made uncomfortable because we are apparently saying that ‘Arya is hot’ when others simply point out that Arya is canonically pretty and that is important for Arya’s story.

Quiet a few of these people, not all of them, also pretend to be above fandom wank and then engage in wank, vague posting, taking screenshots from other blogs and using it make disingenuous arguments. I think that’s well explained here.

And this double standard in the asoiaf fandom is what is being highlighted when the term ‘neutral’ is being used.

It’s highlighting a trend where big name fans who are primarily Sansa fans have controlled the narrative around these characters for a long time. And now other readers are noticing and using the text of the books to point out the fallacies in these metas and writing their own analyses.

And that’s all there is to this.

#Regarding that trashy reddit post

95 notes · View notes

daeneryswhitehorse · 5 years ago

Text

Dany hate throughout the years.

( This is base on a reply I made in post create by @yendany . I also want to precise that it is only my perspective of the fandom as a dany stan, other people probably have a different opinion of what was going on. )

I came in the asoiaf/got fandom in 2011, when the show first came out. I fell in love with dany on my first watch and still like her after reading the books. I started to get involved in the fandom because I wanted to learn more about her.

I didn't know tumblr at the time so I was on westeros.org. The mad queen dany theory was already a thing, mostly for the persons who didn't like that dany could be azor ahai and not one of the male character. But the forum still liked her for her baddass moments in asos or her portrayal in the first season of got.

Everything changed when adwd came out. The incels in this site really didn't liked dany having sex with daario after rejecting jorah/quentyn. They also didn't understood her plot, were tired of her staying in Essos or not interacting with main pov character. It was enough for them to think she was boring.

From then on, there were a lot of bad take of her character. Grrm wanting to talk about the consequences of her mistakes and her decision of staying in meereen was understood as dany being dumb and incompetent as a queen. People made fun of her long list of titles and thought it make her look arrogant. They claimed she was nothing without her dragon, in contrast to male character like stannis. Or not a true warrior because she spend her battle hiding in her tent, unlike stannis or jon who fight with swords. Or that she didn't car about the common people, because she try to negociate with the meereeness nobles. Most of those claimed exist to prove why character like Jon or Stannis would be azor ahai or the true king of Westeros.

After season 3 of the show came out, a lot of people were rightfully offended by the final scene with daenerys where she surf on a sea of brown people. A lot of fans start seeing Dany as a white savior in both books and show, and a lot of essay were about how how her storyline was rooted in racist orientalist ideas. If you were a person of color and still stan her, it was probably because of internalized racism.

Before this season, feminist critized the butchering of most of dany storyline, like they did with other female characters. But none was as talk about then Sansa's, because the most popular female character like Dany, Arya and Brienne were seen as the cash grab of the show. It was considered more important to defend her in particular, and liking Sansa over them was seen as resistance act against D&D misogyny.

The intellectual part of the fandom really went out of their way in defending her. They liked her because she was a gateway to the political part of the story in King's Landing and the Vale. They didn't like how some fans victim-blamed her for the abuse she suffered with the Lannister, and praised the fact she didn't end up with stockolm syndrome like Dany or Theon. "Not everyone can be an Arya" did they said, as they wanted people to acknowledged she was the more relatable point of view and how her traditional feminity shouldn't be put down. They emphasis a lot on her kindness, her emphatie, or her observational skills but and said those qualities were unique to her and are what separate her of the rest of the cast. She was the representation of humanity in this crapsack world. And after outsmarting Littlefinger would probably be rewarded with an important political position and would be one of the builder of the new world after the apocalypse.

All of this probably wasn't meant to be interprete as hate toward other female and some of the male characters, but it sure did for the Sansa stan! Who would then create their entire defense meta around putting down any character they found and upliftting her above them. Their favorite target was Arya, but you could found from time to time one on Dany. I remember someone defending Sansa innocence in trusting Cersei in the first book, by emphasing on her age and naivety, and putting down dany for not knowing mirri maz durr would get revenge on her khalassar.

Talking about Dany, the intellectual part of the fandom didn't really like her. I mean they didn't hate her, and didn't diminish her importance in the story, but she clearly wasn't a fan favorite.

There was two angle in their analysis of daenerys: the political leader and the messiah.

For the first part, they were trying to define daenerys position in the story, and came to the conclusion she was the destroyer of the old world. In their point of view, dany didn't free the slaves in asos for pure reason but because she couldn't pay for an army, and then didn't know how to build a new economy, leading to the horrors in astapor in adwd and her failure in maintaining peace in meereen. For them, Dany is unable to control her emotion and confuse revenge with justice. They also think she is an incompetent queen who make decision on a whim and never listen to her adviser. Her relationship with Daario represent her want for easy solution through war, wich she embrace at the end of adwd. When she can't remember Hazzea name, it meant innocent would die in her violent path in twow. Because of this, the expression "the path of hell is paved with good intention" became popular to define her arc from asos to beyond.

For the second part, they were clearly interressed by the mystical part of her story. Dany has a lot of prophecy around her that can be used to determined the next plotlines post adwd. For some reason, they pushed their own obssession with it on Daenerys, who they now believed is blinded by her own destiny. They claimed she think she is the hero of story and is unable to see when she does something wrong. This until she will blow up King's Landing in ados. This would push her toward her true destiny in the fight against the others where she will sacrifice herself for the greater good.

And lets not talk about the weird part of the fandom who are obssessed with deconstruction and who would only acknowledge dany as azor ahai reborn if it meant the hero is actually the true villain of the story, and the Others misunderstood victims.

2015 arrive as well as season 5 of got. This season was so controversial it manage to divided the fandom in three.

The first one were book purist who were disguted by the total butchering of affc/adwd plotline to replace them with offensive mess, and decided to stop watching the show and focus on the books. While some of them were dany friendly, they all seem to favor character like Sansa, Stannis, Brienne, the Lannisters, or the Martells. A lot of effort were put into their metas to uplift their book plotline and personality above their show counterpart.

The second part is similar to the first one, exept they didn't stop watching the show but decided to view each season through critical lense to try to understand the sexism and racism of D&D. They were mostly Sansa and Martell stan.

Both of those point of view were seen as too radical and annoying by the dudebro show apologist. Being a Martell and Sansa stan also become a sign of being a woke feminist, a book purist and a show anti.

The third part of the fandom decided that the failure of season 5 was the responsability of Grrm for not finishing his books in time, and that the show writer had run out of material and were forced to improvised. Plus the book plots were too complex and boring to be adapted, they had to simplify them. And they were also given futur plot point by Grrm that could explain some of the controversial decision this season. Like Sansa wedding with Ramsay, it was probably made because the character would end up in the North in one of the next books.

Thoses three point of view are important to understand why when the theory saying dany is a villain not a hero became more popular, dany stan were pretty isolated.

And why did this theory became more popular? Well it's a mix of all thoses perception of daenerys that I mention above but mostly because of the peoples who decided that dany in season 5 was Joffrey.02. Like I say there were people who thought that D&D were now working with futur plot point given by Grrm. And since dany storyline was read as one of a white savior, and the fandom believed Grrm can't do no wrong, and dany did some stuff this season they disapproved of, they decided it meant dany should be seen as a villain. And in a way, it manage to reconciliate the feminist anti racist and the pro D&D point of view , now united in hating daenerys. It allowed them to still trust the show, because it meant it was not D&D and grrm who were racist but dany, and it made them feel smart for having figured out this big plot point. Plus a chunk of the show!jon stan decide the parallel between them this season meant he would become the true hero of the story. Because they thought janos execution was more honorable than mossador's, and jon fight against the wight walker to defend his brothers and the free folks was contrast with dany running away on drogon.

But there were people who didn't like dany and didn't think she would become a villain. Thoses people were feminist who thought daenerys, as the face of the show, was the embodiement of D&D fake feminism responsible of the ruined of character like Sansa or the Martells. Sansa in particular because they felt the show hated traditional feminity which is something Dany was not, which was what allegedly gave her more priviledge and love by the writer and fandom. When season 6 came out, they criticized the double standard between Cersei and Dany, where the former was demonized for burning a Church and the later was celebrate for burning the khals in their holy place. Obviously, the criticism of orientalism and racism within her story didn't make her very popular with feminist.

Season 6 end, and the sansa fandom decide to ship their fav with Jon Snow. But unfortunalty for them, it was obvious that jonerys would become a thing in later season.

Now Sansa was pretty well beloved by the fandom. Like I said earlier, the intellectual part of the fandom and the sansa defense squad really went out of their way to give a better image of the character, wich was fairly popular now that show sansa had a more active role. Plus the feminist adore her!

On the other hand, daenerys was seen as either a villain in the making, or the representation of the show fake feminism and racism. At this point dany stan were considered the dumbass of the fandom.

So, what happen when the jonerys vs jonsa shipping war happen? Well the jonerys shipper were seen as the big bully who victimized the poor sansa stan. Since in their point of view, dany stan were racist people who can't read, and the sansa stan were the woke book purist. Since Sansa was the underdog unfairly hated by the dudebro of the fandom, but beloved by the intellectuals. And Dany was the popular girl who got dumb stan and is only loved by pop feminism. People were naturally more incline into believing jonsa shippers as the victime of this war.

Even when the sansa stan were saying the most heinous things about dany and other female character to prop her up. Even when they were using the villain dany theory, the dark!dany theory, the white savior theory that had now become about dany being a colonizer and imperialist, or the ableist mad queen dany theory wich they backed up by diagnosis her with all the real life disorder they hated. It was seen as normal and dany stan just can't handle criticism. Even when multiple blog were created on tumblr to hate on daenerys which had almost no equivalent for the sansa/jonsa fandom, the jonerys shippers were the bad guys.

Jonerys was made canon in season 7. The intellectual part of the fandom either accept it but thought it was a cliche uninspiring ship, or they defend it for the themes but didn't see it as a complex relationship like jaime with cersei or brienne. The feminist, particulary the one who hated house targaryen, were shocked that grrm could romantize incest. And obviously, the jonsa hated it, and there ugliness started to be notice more with the weird theory they builted, like political!jon. The Jonerys fandom were finally getting some justice.

Plus more big name essayists in the fandom started debunking of the baseless incel hate dany receive post adwd. Dany had now the right to sleep with Daario, Jorah was a creep, Dany rejected Quentyn for peace, and Drogo being Dany rapist was getting more believed by the fandom.

During the hiatus before season season 8, @rainhadaenerys wrote down a lot of meta as a defense against the worst claimed that the fandom made about Dany. It gave hoped to dany stan, but it was crushed by season 8 with D&D deciding to make the mad queen theory canon the worst way possible.

Now the feminist and the intellectual part of the fandom are both defending daenerys. But there is the dominant idea that certain event of the last season could happen in the books, like dany burning King's Landing. And the possibility of her going insane should be accepted by the dany stan, and if not, it mean we are not real asoiaf fans.

#dany #anti got fandom #anti asoiaf fandom

69 notes · View notes

ladyaryawolf · 5 years ago

Text

Why Jonsa does not work in the books.

This post is where starts the conflict. Jonsa thoughs. My toughts.

What makes a lot o people ship Jon x Sansa is because of the show, and I can understand it. Ship what you want. It's your right.

It does not mean that people can lie about what happens in the books, or what is cannon by GrrM himself.

D&D gave part of Arya's history and traits to Sansa in the show. Fact.

Jeyne Poole was using Arya's name. She was the one that was abused by Ramsay Balton. This false Arya was the one that the North went into a War, and the one that made Jon Snow break his vows. It was not Sansa who Jon fought and died for.

Ship what you want. You are free to ship. Making paralelles about Cat and Ned with Jonsa. Okay. I am a Jonrya shipper. I make parallels of Jonrya and Lyanna/Rhaegar and Alyssane/Jaehaerys. We are passionate shippers after all, in a fandom where morality is not a big deal the most part of time. You have a mean to make your point, then use it.

But whatever. GrrM said that the show and the books are like different universes. Words of the author. You can't discuss that.

What I can NOT take is people lying about canonic things, and my mind explodes when I read a lot of lies of the books to justify Jonsa.

Like Sansa is Jon's type. Like Jon remembers of Sansa when he met Ygritte. Like Jon and Sansa were always close. Lies!

He compares Ygritte to Arya, tought he addmit they don't even look alike, he never, never tought about Sansa while with Ygritte. He compares Val to Arya.

"They had always been close. Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her." (Jon, A Game of Thrones).

"And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him." (Jon, A Game of Thrones)

"The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north." (Jon, A Game of Thrones)

"Gods of my fathers, protect these men. And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me." (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

"Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl." (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

“I have no sister.” The words were knives.

"The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart." (Jon, A Dance with Dragon)

"What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? "(Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

The Ygritte comparation:

“Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it’s done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. “Will you yield?” he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn’t?” - Jon VI, ACoK

“Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he’d thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.” - Jon VI, ACoK

“Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a “spearwife” when they’d captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn’t wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but “spearwife” fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore.” - Jon II, ASoS

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?” - Jon III, ASoS

When he received the letter of Ramsay

"Jon saw no reason not to tell him. “Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son’s wedding to…” His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King’s Landing, with Father."

"Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton’s bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she’ll fight him."

"His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily." (Jon, a Dance with Dragons).

"Jon felt as stiff as a man of sixty years. Dark dreams, he thought, and guilt. His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart. He’d had Mikken make a sword for Arya once, a bravo’s blade, made small to fit her hand. Needle. He wondered if she still had it. Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her, but if she tried to stick the Bastard, it could mean her life." (Jon, A Dance with Dragons).

• In books the quote “Love is the death of duty” by Maester Aemon is used when Jon decidesld break his vows from nights watch to save “Arya”. Arya is the character Jon loves the most and he thinks on her in every moment.

He dies thinking about Arya:

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whitspered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…" (Jon, A Dance with Dragons).

George's Interviews:

“At some points, when [Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] and I had discussions about what way we should go in, I would always favor sticking with the books, while they would favor making changes,” he said. “I think one of the biggest ones would probably be when they made the decision not to bring Catelyn Stark back as Lady Stoneheart. That was probably the first major diversion of the show from the books and, you know, I argued against that, and David and Dan made that decision.” - Time Magazine, 2017

“You have to remember that I started writing this story in 1991 and I first met David and Dan in 2007. I was living with these characters and this world for 16 years before we even started working on the show. They’re pretty fixed in my mind and I’m not going to change anything because of the show, or reaction to the show, or what fans think. I’m just still writing the story that I set out to write in the early 1990s.” - Time Magazine, 2017

My conclusion:

Like I said before. You are free to ship everyone, but not lie about Canon things written by George RR Mantin himself. This is the canonic verse. Jon and Samsa rarely think of each other. Sansa was always distant from him, she regreats it later, but still is a fact. I am not an anti-Sansa. She is not my favorite, i addmit, but anti, for me, is somente idiot that says stupid arguements with insults just to put another character in glory, only because they dislike another, and even refuse to aguement as adults. In another words, those antis are childsh.

There is a lot of people saying that Jon would be good for Sansa and take him out of her is something cruel, as everything that is good for her is fanservice. We agree in disagree. There is no way we could try taking Jon from Sansa, if he was not hers in first place. Like I said, they rarely think of each other, she bullied him when they lived together, she kept distance following Cat's personal opinion. Sansa's fault? No. She was a child seeing her mother's opinions, and following it. It does not change what she have done. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Jon hates her, but the memories he shares with Sansa during his childhood are not the best. It doesn't mean they won't get along. They will! Of course they will, by all they could know, they would be the lasts of the Starks alive. Sansa might go to Winterfell in TWoW before Arya. Would they get closer? Probably. Will they share the same bond showned on TV show? No. This is bad for her? No. She would be home, with her family. This is bad to you? Sounds terrible? Does it sounds harsh?

Like, other thing that I hate about Jonsa-stans (just a part of them) justifies that she needs someone to make her happy. With all respect, if you think this way about Sansa, you do not like her. Not really. Sansa is much more complex of a character to say that only a romantic relationship with a man could make her happy. She does not need someone else in a romantic way to make her happy. She passed through a hell in King's Landing, and Petyr actions with her can be described only as disgusting. To say the only good thing that could happen to her is a man, you are reducing her character to a simple one. Everything she wants it's to go home. She is smart, kind and clever. Sansa is making Petyr Baelish play in her hands. I don't want Sansa to end up alone. She deserves a lot. She is really strong, in so many ways. Her strengh is not like Arya, Ygritte or Val. It's subtle and delicate, like Margaery in someway. Sansa deserves a man who respects her, a man who loves her with all his heart, a man that carries for her the same way Jon carries for Arya. Uconditionally.

Other thing that I hear is that Jonsa stans always says that, we, Arya-stans, look to Jonsa as threat to Arya, and we all get mad about it. I can't talk in the name of the others. For me, fuck the show. I don't care. I don't even look at the show as part of GrrM work anymore. But what gets me mad as an Arya stan, and a Jonrya shipper is not Jonsa itself. They had chemistry on screen, but in the books they don't have any of it. This is what gets me mad.

It's trying to stole something that belongs to Jon and Arya alone that gets me mad. One of the strongest and purest bonds I have ever seen in books or screen. It doesn't belong to Sansa all this devotion. It's not canon in the books, and annoys me to see tons of people lying and self inserting Sansa in Jon's heart just because they want the books to happen the same way in the show. Forget it. It's not going to happen. A lot of other characters and relationships have been destroyed by D&D, not only Jon & Arya. Write and read fanfics. Ship whatever the hell you want, but don't lie about cononic things. If Jon and Arya get along as a romantic couple or not, does not change that this bond is theirs. Sansa has her own history in the books. Her own importance. She wil be part to take Winterfell back, not the same way she did on the show, but she will be a big part of it. And she is a Stark! The end! Sansa is a southern lady in many ways, but she is Sansa Stark and a princess by her own right, dammit! She says it herself that her strengh comes from the walls within Winterfell!

Thank you to read. I have to be greatful to another posts that helped me to write it. I have to say sorry about my grammar. English is not my first language, but I hope what I wrote was clear to understand. See you soon.

149 notes · View notes